Thoughts on Incels
27th Apr 201817m02s
- By now I'm sure some of you have heard about the guy in Toronto, who killed a bunch of people by driving his vehicle through them. And also the fact that he described himself as an incel, or involuntarily celibate. So involuntary celibacy, for people who aren't aware, is a description of being celibate, but through no fault of one's own. And that's what people who describe themselves as incel feel. And in a large part, what they feel is that it's their looks that hold them back from getting sex with someone they're attracted to. And the incel community, so to speak, and the main website for this, from what I can tell is incels.me, so you can check it out there. It's just a forum. The incel community, a lot of the conversations within that community revolve around this idea that it is about looks. And I started looking into this a bit more, reading some of the forum posts, and what I found was quite interesting. And it's quite different to how incels are, at the moment, being portrayed in the mainstream media. So in the mainstream media a lot of people are focusing on the idea that this is maybe an offshoot or related to the alt-right white supremacist movement, and such and such. And that a lot of these guys are misogynists, and they just hate women and then that's why they haven't been able to get the results that they wanted. And looking through the community forum postings, I mean there's definitely some, there are definitely some people in there who are advocating for violence. Advocating for mistreatment. You know, misogynistic stuff. But there are also a lot of people who aren't doing that, but instead who are just depressed about the state they find themselves in, and at a loss, and effectively resigned to their fate. And it got me thinking about how it is that someone can end up in that mindset of seeing themselves as incel. So, if you think about it, right? In modern society, modern dating, thanks to feminism and equality, women are earning just as much, if not more, than men in a lot of jobs. And women are fairly independent. So for the modern guy to be successful in dating market, he's got to have more than just a job. He's gotta be good at socializing. He's gotta be charming. He's gotta be interesting. There are a lot more qualities that have to be brought to the table. And I can foresee a situation where a guy who's quite shy when he's a kid, maybe he gets bullied at school, or maybe he just keeps to himself and doesn't develop these sort of social skills, doesn't go out much, gets to be older, and suddenly find themselves in a situation where he can't get the results he sees other guys getting because he just doesn't have the confidence to go out there and get what he wants. And despite all the advancements, and equality, and women now doing the same kind of jobs as men, when it comes to dating, a man still has to take the initiative. So if you don't have the confidence to do that, then you're not gonna take the initiative, and you're not gonna experience that side of life. And then over time, it just gets worse and worse, because you see other people moving on with this, and you're not moving on. So you start to create a narrative in your mind about why it is you're not getting results. And then maybe you try a few times and then you get rejected, pretty badly maybe. Or something's happened to you. Or your crush rejects you. And thanks to a sort of confirmation bias, or just your own interpretation of how things are, these sort of events feed into your narrative about why it is you're unsuccessful. At this point, you split into one of two camps. Either you think that it's largely down to you not having developed yourself, and you then try and make changes, try and make improvements. Or you fit into the camp that it's not your fault. It's because people are just too judgemental, and people are too superficial. That if you are better looking, like that really good-looking guy, then you wouldn't be having this problem, right? Because the good-looking guy, from what you can tell, isn't having to try so hard. But you are, and yet you're not getting results. So you fit into one of those two camps. And the people now, if you're in this camp, you might try, try, try. Improve yourself, change yourself. Read pick-up artist stuff, "The Game", whatever. And you start getting results, then you start thinking, "Yeah, this is how it is, this is the way it is." You might try, try, try and fail. And you might reach a point where you think, "You know what? "I've tried everything and nothing works. "It must be because of something more fundamental. "It must be because I just look ugly." At that point you start shifting into this camp. So the incels community, which is this camp, the camp which believes it's something fundamental. It's not ultimately their fault. It's just the judgements society's placing on them, women are placing on them, they're just too ugly, whatever it is. This community includes people who are sort of resigned to that as well as people who have tried and failed and them become resigned to it. So a lot of the conversations in the community, you find, are around this. And they discuss the pills. So the blue pill, the red pill, the black pill. So the blue pill people, from their point of view, is people who, ordinary guys, guys who call themselves feminist allies. Guys who are in relationships with girlfriends. But guys who, as they see, don't acknowledge, or refuse to see, the hypergamous nature of women. And red pill people, from their point of view, are the people who have seen and acknowledged the hypergamous nature of women, and then decided to improve their own game in order to improve their own chances in the market place. So this is anybody involved in pick-up artist stuff. Anybody involved in gaming or sarging, all of those things. By gaming, I mean gaming women. Not computer games. So, and there's actually, you know, the red pill subreddit on Reddit, which is guys like this, guys who are working on improving themselves, improving their technique, and their ability to chat to women, in order to get the results that they want. And they look down on the blue pill guys, 'cause they see the blue pill guys as the betas, the alpha fucks beta bucks. So these guys are basically trying to present themselves, and even become, more alpha, in order to get the sort of the top-tier women. So the guys in the incels community consider themselves to be blackpilled. And the black pill, essentially means that the red pill guys, even the red pill guys, are wrong, because those guys are still only succeeding because fundamentally, they're still good-looking enough. So what they were lacking before was just maybe social skills, and maybe some confidence, but they still had the fundamental requirements of good looks needed to get results. And the incels community, the black pill guys, are saying, "If you don't have those fundamentals, "then it doesn't matter how much effort you put in, "how much skill you have, "you're just not gonna get the results." Now a lot of the guys in the red pill community disagree with this, because their argument can be made, which they make, and you can make this, is, "Well, you just need to try harder. "You know, yes, you need to be a little bit "good-looking, but there's somebody out there "who will find you good-looking, "so you need to keep trying and not give up." And if I was in a situation, and I had to pick a mindset to go with, if I was struggling to get dates and I had to pick a mindset, I would prefer this mindset, of not giving up, because if you give up then obviously you're not gonna get results, but if you keep going, no matter how much it sucks, you might get something. Now in the incels community, a lot of incels actually are non-white, so a lot of ethnic incels. You have South Asian, as well as East Asian incels. And black incels, and so on. And what I find interesting is, a lot of the Asian incels, so South and East Asian, they feel that being Asian is a disadvantage in the dating market, and I've come across some studies and some online, I guess, experiments, before which indicate that there's some truth to this. The most desirable type of male ethnically is a white male, in online dating. And Asian men tend to be the least desirable, even by women of their own race. And this is, I mean I think that, in general in society, this happens because of the lack of media representation of Asians, and also the negative stereotypes usually associated with Asians. So the South Asians, it's usually the nerdy sterotype. So that's just one example. And I think with online dating, and online dating apps, these sorts of stereotypes get exacerbated even more because people I think are more picky when it comes to these apps. So if I met somebody in person, then they're getting a much more accurate and rounded picture of who I am, because they see me in the flesh, and they hear the way I'm speaking, and, you know, whereas if they just see a photograph of me, and they can't hear me speak, they can't hear my thoughts and ideas, and they're not gonna read my profile, then what they're gonna think of me is gonna be based on the ideas they already have, or it's gonna be based more on the ideas they already have, of people who look like me. So that's why I think online dating and dating apps exacerbate these sorts of judgments that we have about other people, based on their race, ethnicity, height, whatever. So I think there's some truth to this idea that being ethnic, given the results, OkCupid did some research on this with their user base, which confirms this, so given results like that, that if you are of non-white ethnicity, then it is harder. So I have some sympathy for guys in that situation. Of course, I mean, I don't have sympathy for the guys who advocate anything misogynistic, because, not just because that's bad, but because it's not even gonna change anything. It's not effective. You can't change how other people perceive you. It sucks, that obviously you can't, but that's just how it is. But you can't then attack them for that either, because that's not gonna change their mind, it's not gonna get you the result that you want. So I think a lot of people in this forum who are advocating those sorts of things, they're just doing it out of anger, rage, and frustration. They're not really thinking through what they're talking about. And they idolize people like Elliot Rodger, the guy who, out of his own frustration, for the same reasons, went and just killed a bunch of people before killing himself. And I actually read his manifesto after that came out in the news, and it's very clear in my mind that he really saw himself as something pretty special, and he was frustrated that he didn't get any attention from girls. But what was also clear was he didn't really approach girls, he didn't really put any effort into really go out there, go out of his way to do it, and in some ways I can understand that, because if you see other guys not having to put much effort in, you gotta question, why do I have to put so much effort in? But in other ways I think, well, sometimes life is like that. Sometimes you're starting a little bit behind everybody else, and you have to put effort in to catch up. It sucks, but it's how it is. So maybe if he'd put some effort in, he wouldn't have ended up in that situation, and those things wouldn't have happened, maybe. The people on the forum who idolize Elliot Rodger, and they abbreviate his name to E.R., they do so because they feel that he went and did the thing that they all ought to be doing, which is just to take their rage out on women for being rejected or for not being given love. And if anything's gonna get them into trouble with the law, with the mainstream, it's gonna be those kind of thoughts, those kind of ideas. Interesting thing about the black pill, and I actually got this idea from a comment, I read about this elsewhere, is that if you think about it, the black pill, on a very general level, is sort of true. So, every generation of human beings, there are some people who will not procreate, and it might very well be because they just weren't attractive enough, to anyone, combined with the fact that they didn't put themselves out there enough. But let's take that out and just say they just weren't attractive enough, despite all their efforts. And that means they're not gonna procreate, and their genes die out from the gene pool. And that is just an unfortunate but real characteristic of our civilization, and it's been ongoing since the dawn of humanity, this is just how it is. So, even if you say, even if someone wants to say, someone who's blue pill, for example, wants to say, "The black pill's all nonsense, "you guys are just hateful people, "and you just need to try harder, and whatever." No one can deny this general higher-level black pill, this general higher-level fact, that some genes are going to get removed from the gene pool because the people whose genes they are were not able to mate and produce offspring that survived. And that's just a fact of life. And it's one of those things that you just have to suck up, and what it tells you, what it tells me, is you have to do everything you can, if it's important to you, you have to do everything you can to get out there and find a partner. And you can't give up. And this is really the message that I would give to someone who'd describe themself as an incel, is that they cannot give up. They owe it to themselves to live as fulfilling a life as possible. If you give up, you're definitely not gonna get any results, but if you keep trying, keep trying, and you take risks, and you're willing to explore, then you might get a result. It's not guaranteed, but at least you're giving yourself the best chance, and life is precious, and I think most people, even in that community, know life is precious. There are some people who want to give up completely and kill themselves, and that's sad, but I think a lot of the people there aren't at that point in their thinking yet. And maybe they never will be, because they realize they still wanna live and experience life, just being alive is amazing. So for those people, for everyone, but more for those people, I would say, you cannot give up, you have to keep trying, because what else is there to do? What else is there to do? You might as well try, and then be miserable at the end of trying so much, than just be miserable. Now maybe you say, "Well, if you try so much, "you're gonna be even more miserable "once you don't get the result." But that's the thing. There's a chance you might get the result, in which case, it's gonna transform everything. And one thing I feel is like a lot of these guys, and there are some girls in there too, but I think it's mostly guys, a lot of these guys, they haven't gathered enough data, in my opinion, before reaching the conclusion they've reached. So have they traveled around the world? Have they been to different countries, where the cultures are a bit different? I'm sure there are cultures out there where you don't have to be the tall, good-looking dude to get a woman, the criteria is different. And I've traveled around the world, and I've definitely been places where the standards were different, so that's one thing I'd say. There's the whole world out there that you can explore, if you're really serious about breaking this spell of yours, this curse, if you wanna call it that, and get laid, and get a partner. Then these kinda options should be explored. They should be explored. And the final thing I'll say is that, you know, at the end of the day, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right that the odds are unfairly stacked against you, because of how you were born, some characteristics you're lacking, or some physical traits that you're just unfortunately born with, whatever it is, right, it's your life, and ultimately it doesn't affect anybody else, what does or doesn't happen to you. So what does or doesn't happen to you doesn't impact anybody else, even if people say nasty things to you, people ignore you, whatever it is, ultimately most people don't care about you. So you have to, in your mind, realize that it doesn't matter what people think, doesn't matter what standard society sets, whether society says you're X, Y, Z, and people are rejecting you en masse. You become strong within yourself, and you craft your identity, and you just go down that path non-stop. Just non-stop. And just become somebody, just become somebody that, at least become proud of who you are, and proud of yourself. And again, there's no guarantee you're gonna get this particular result that you want, but at least you're gonna create something that you can be truly proud of. Well, I actually believe that if you really went down and really pushed yourself, and grew and just experienced lots of different things, I think even this problem would get solved for a lot of you, that's what I think.